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October 16, 2008
The end of buy and hold?
I trust you will not judge me guilty of overstatement if I say that good news from equity markets has been hard to come by of late. So rough has been the ride that at least one (quite) famous pundit-analyst has taken measure of the landscape and concluded that the time has come to abandon the venerable “buy and hold” investment advice generally offered ordinary savers:
"It's time to unlearn a common myth about investing," Jim Cramer told viewers on Monday. "The best way to invest is not to buy a bunch of stocks and just sit on them."
As is usual in such cases, it is useful to have a look at the record. Though it’s not entirely clear what quantity constitutes “a bunch of stocks,” one reasonable definition would be a broad stock index. With that in mind, here is a look at the annualized three- and five-year rates of change in the S&P 500 index going back to 1941.
This is not the return on an investment in the index, of course, as holding the portfolio of equities in the index would also generate dividends over the holding period. But it does give some sense of how the recent past compares with the more distant past. While it is true that things look bleak at the moment, this is hardly an unprecedented circumstance. If the buy-and-hold strategy had merit before, it really isn’t that clear things had changed that much through this past September.
You might reasonably argue that buy-and-hold really applies to horizons that extend beyond five years. Here, then, is the same sort of chart as above with index growth for 10-, 15-, and 20-year holding periods.
True enough, the past 10 years have been a little ragged, though again not really unprecedented. And if you were lucky enough to be a long-term saver—that is, held the index for the past 15 to 20 years—good for you. (And note that returns over these horizons are, not surprisingly, substantially less volatile than over the shorter periods.)
Ok, I hear you. Why did I conveniently stop just short of the dramatic decline in the stock market since September. Sure enough, things look substantially worse when the stock market loses over a quarter of its value in a month. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that the S&P average for October ends up at 900, or near the low so far this month. Redoing the three-, five-, 10-, 15-, and 20-year growth calculations would yield annualized rates of –8.9 percent, –2.8 percent, –1.4 percent, 4.5 percent, and 6.1 percent, respectively. Even with the major reversal of the last month, the implied returns on the 15- and 20-year holding periods look pretty good.
Of course, the “buy-and-hold is dead” idea relies on the presumption that the next 10 years are going to look a lot like the last 10 years. Only time will tell if the current growth rate on the three- to10-year holding periods is a trend, or just evidence that you won’t do so well when you get out of the market at exactly the wrong time. I don’t know what the answer is—and I don’t offer investment advice—but the verdict of history is pretty clear.
By David Altig, senior vice president and research director of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta
October 16, 2008 in Financial System | Permalink
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Comments
Posted by:
Murph |
October 16, 2008 at 08:09 PM
"... the verdict of history is pretty clear."
So it is! Consider how a hypothetical investor who continuously earned the worst returns ever recorded for the S&P 500 fared against the "safest investment on Earth!":
Posted by:
Ironman |
October 16, 2008 at 09:54 PM
Uh Dave,
You might want to mention that people who bought at the peak in 1929---it took them about 30 years to get back to even in nominal terms.
People who bought at the peak in the early 70s, it took them over 10 years to get back to even in nominal terms--and much longer in real terms of course.
People who bought the S&P 500 in 1998--ten years ago---are now just about even in nominal terms (not counting the meager dividends), but they are still down about 25 percent in real terms. And that's after 10 years of living in Greenspan's so-called "new economy" which was supposed to make us all rich.
When was the most recent peak? Oh yeah: October 9, 2007 (Dow = 14,000 and change). Uh oh. How long will it take to get back to even in real terms. 10 years? 20 years?
Stocks for the long run? Maybe, but the baby boom generation ain't got that much time Dave. And don't forget that we still have to come with around $65 trillion to pay for their promised Medicare benefits.
Posted by:
Mr. Mojo Fallin |
October 17, 2008 at 12:55 AM
The next ten years are much more likely to look like the last ten years of the Nikkei 225 than like the last ten years of the Dow or S&P 500.
I still remember tuning the TV in my hotel room to NHK during a Japan business trip circa 1989 and finding a stock market tout in a very expensive suit delivering a lecture on investment strategies to a group of archetypical Tokyo matrons, some of whom were clearly worried about talk of a "bubble" (appearing regularly in the newspapers at that time), and advising them that no one had ever lost money in Japan's stock market if they'd stayed invested for more than three years. The Nikkei was nearing its ultimate high of 40,000 at the time; in the last 10 years I don't think it's made it back above 20,000 even once.
Posted by:
jm |
October 17, 2008 at 02:13 AM
Mr. Mojo Fallin,
Are you suggeesting investing is like a one time purchase? Good investors do not buy "at the peak". They continually invest, buying MORE shares when stocks are on sale and LESS high priced shares.
"but the baby boom generation ain't got that much time Dave."
A boomer approaching 60 has how long? Seems more like long term than short term to me, especially if you don't want to outlive your investments (you will never make it in bonds).
Posted by:
me |
October 17, 2008 at 10:29 AM
You could get better investment advice watching the Food Network, than from Jim Cramer. If you follow his advice I predict you will be living with negative investment returns forever. If boomers only have 3-5 years before needing their cash, then yes, get into something safer. If your horizon was only 3-5 years, you bad, for leaving your nest egg in the wrong type of investment. People always get burned by their own greed.
Posted by:
kevin |
October 17, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Mr. Mojo Fallen wrote:
"You might want to mention that people who bought at the peak in 1929---it took them about 30 years to get back to even in nominal terms."
That's incorrect. You're assuming that there were any people who invested just once (say in September 1929, when the peak of the market was reached before the "Great Crash") and never invested in the stock market again.
You're also ignoring the effects of dividend reinvestment.
Neither assumption represents how investing in the real world works. As to the first case, please bear in mind that people who began investing in the aftermath of the Great Crash began making significant returns much sooner.
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/5sxn5o
As to the second, even factoring inflation into the picture, the longest ever recorded period of time in which a single investment in the S&P 500 was "underwater" is 21 years (not 30) thanks to dividend reinvestment. That single period ran from June 1911 to June 1932.
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/6e766e
Held less than a year longer, that single investment launched in June 1911 swung into positive territory.
Posted by:
Ironman |
October 17, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Technically my comment above that the Nikkei hadn't been back above 20,000 in the last ten years turns out to be wrong -- it briefly topped that level by a hair in 2000. But the correctness of the essence of the comment is well portrayed by this chart:
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2008/10/16/the_downikkei_c.html
Posted by:
jm |
October 17, 2008 at 10:52 AM
As an economist you know well that your figures now need to be compared with bond returns. Some easily available information is the 10-year return on Vanguard's short term Treasury fund: 4.71%. Given that it took a long time for interest rates to fall from their early 80s high, it's almost certain that the 20 year return from rolling short-term treasuries is significantly higher than 4.71%.
I suspect that what we are seeing is the end of the index (and maybe even the mutual) fund bubble and of the equity premium myth. If you want to apply a buy and hold strategy to the stock market, you need to study your firms, pick them carefully based on the fundamentals and keep track of what management is doing over time -- just like your grandpa used to recommend.
Posted by:
ccm |
October 17, 2008 at 12:17 PM
Abandoning buy-and-hold doesn't mean becoming a market timer. It can mean abandoning stocks and bonds, entirely.
In hindsight -- and many had foresight -- investing in tangible inflation hedges (precious metals, commodities, real estate, coins and stamps, as examples) was the correct move in the period 1974-1982.
What's the alternative, today? Deflation and cash?
Posted by:
Ellen1910 |
October 17, 2008 at 01:21 PM
Are you seriously going to fade Warren Buffett?
And listen to Jim Cramer? Cramer was advising people to buy stocks in December 2007.
The analysis presented is weak.
Instead, look at the SP500 10-year P/E from Robert Shiller in his book Irrational Exuberance. The historical median is about 17. Use the SP500 10-year P/E as a measure of value. If people buy "the index" whenever the P/E is below 10 or 11, they make big bucks. Right now, the SP500 is still overvalued, based on the 10-year P/E.
Please check it out.
Posted by:
Cornelius V. |
October 17, 2008 at 02:34 PM
David, nice to have you back on Macroblog; I had almost given up on you.
Oh, and thanks to Jim Cramer for telling us buy-and-hold is dead AFTER the market crash...you could have told us in December 1999 and saved us a few headaches.
Posted by:
Marcos, XP-75 |
October 17, 2008 at 04:38 PM
A specious argument.
Contexts change and context-driven selection always occurs over time IN ANY THERMODYNAMIC SYSTEM. Hence, to outdo the mean, you either CAREFULLY select a subset of assets for buy&hold (e.g., Warren Buffet), or CAREFULLY select when to buy&sell a subset of assets (e.g., George Soros, Jim Rogers). For VERY long term selection, you CAREFULLY select the right country to emigrate to.
Name your poison & do your homework. There's no free lunch, but you can get lucky.
Posted by:
Roger Erickson |
October 17, 2008 at 04:56 PM
Cornelius,
Shiller's 10-year P/E has some problems, but to make a long story short, the ten-year average of reported earnings that he uses is really a poor substitute for dividends.
Ref:
Since investors have historically bid up stock prices at 1.19X the rate that dividends per share have grown, this effect has two results:
1. Dividend Yields (D/P) have tended to decrease over time.
2. Price Earnings Ratios (P/E) has tended to increase over time.
The typical P/E for the stock market will, over time, drift slowly upward, as cash dividends are the drivers of stock prices, rather than top line earnings. This is why looking at the long-term historic average for P/E ratios over the entire post-Civil War history of the U.S. stock market isn't as revealing as you might hope it would be.
Posted by:
Ironman |
October 17, 2008 at 05:51 PM
Posted by:
Ironman |
October 17, 2008 at 05:54 PM
"Buy on weakness and sell on strength" is an alternative to market timing and to "buy and hold." If, instead of just the S&P index you invested in a mix of stocks and bonds and simply rebalanced annually, you would sell on strength and buy on weakness, at least on a relative basis.
Posted by:
NutJob |
October 17, 2008 at 06:56 PM
"Abandoning buy-and-hold doesn't mean becoming a market timer. It can mean abandoning stocks and bonds, entirely."
Right, I know many folks that lost on the tech bubble I never understood how a company with no earnings could be worth so much) and invested in real estate. How's that working out?
Posted by:
me |
October 17, 2008 at 07:01 PM
David, I believe strongly that buy and hold has been dead for 12 years or so.
I think the fallacy of composition renders your analysis somewhat wanting. As a stock picking practitioner, I have found that since the rise of momentum investing, technical trading, hedge funds etc., each security seems to get not just overpriced at some juncture, but bizarrely overpriced. If you don't sell or rebalance, you end up with poor returns.
A great example is Buffett's favorite company, Coca Cola. In 1998 it traded at a PE of 60! Earnings were about $1.30 per share. Now they are about $3.00 per share, and you are down 40% or so on your capital for a decade. [not including dividends]
Same with GE and all the large Pharma stocks. There are countless examples in all capitalization ranges. How are the Buffalo News and Washington Post holdings doing?
The stupidest thing Buffett ever said was that his "favorite holding period is forever." What he should have said was that his favorite holding period is "until some dumb schmuck will pay me some ridiculously unjustified price."
Posted by:
Jay Weinstein |
October 17, 2008 at 07:25 PM
Another academic ninny who does not understand the turkey problem. A turkey relies on past data for 364 days, and believes that the world in a fairly nice place. On the 365 day, Thanksgiving arrives and the turkey is beheaded.
The US markets will provide historical rates of return until they don't. And you will never know when that will be. People in Japan have been waiting for their stock market to rebound for 20 years.
Personally, I think it is ridiculous to assume that American markets will return historical rates even though America is now a mature, non-emergin economy. The returns of the past 10 years are far more indicative of what we can expect to earn.
Posted by:
Incredulous |
October 17, 2008 at 09:36 PM
But do the values of the individual stocks follow that same pattern? Does the S&P always consist of the same set of stocks?
Posted by:
Patricia Shannon |
October 17, 2008 at 10:57 PM
Hey, Mr. Altig: 6.1% pretax over 20 years to take equity-market risk is a "Good" investment? Thankfully you aren't a financial consultant. Try calc'ing the RISK FREE return on Treasurys compounded over that time frame...It's about the same and possibly even HIGHER on an absolute basis. Needless to say, on a risk adjusted basis anyone in index funds over the last 10, 15, 20 years is a Stone-cold Fool.
Posted by:
Forward thinker |
October 18, 2008 at 12:23 AM
It seems pretty clear from your shared insights & observations of the past few years 'the verdict of history" is NOT "pretty clear'. To the contrary, I believe the substance of your careful & well thought musings convincingly argue that whether we look to or rationalize away historical "lessons" seems pretty much determined by our predilections and predispositions.
Posted by:
bailey |
October 18, 2008 at 08:15 AM
I hate statistics. In the long run... This chart says.... Asset Allocation this... Warren B blah blah blah. How about using common sense. For example.
Right now cash is king. what you are seeing in the markets is everyone in the world is trying to lock in cash equivalent. Why? who cares but it is happening. Do you need to know why. I don't think so. What you need to know is who is going to want your cash in the near future.
Jim Crammer does care about your cash, he's paid by the financial industry. Advice is not free, what is his motive? The US govenment doesn't care about your cash, they are going to take it from you without even asking you and then give you 1-2% for it.
Belive it or not the market is already telling you who is going to want your cash in 3, 6 12 months. And further every day the market is telling you that these seekers of your cash are willing to pay you more for your cash than the day before. This has been true in all of Oct despite big gyrations in the stock markets up and down.
Hang on to your cash like everyone in the whole world is out to pick your pocket no matter how good their story sounds. If you mangage to break even, you are a lucky one. This may even be more true in a bull market when every story sounds so unbelievably fantastic.
When the now socialist USA sucks every last dime out of the system. (Thanks hank Paulson and congress. We have no choice in this, regardless of who is elected pres.) Any corporation or business that wants to operate and grow will need to borrow from where ever they can get the funds if there is any left after Paulson gives it to his friends.
Guess what happens to business earnings when you borrow at higher and higher rates. Therefore stocks are going to have a hard time. Or harder than in the free money period.
I'm 100% bonds of various types. It ain't gonna make me rich but the money will be their when I need it with a decent return.
Also, read peter Lynch's first book. It's about stocks. But the real insight of the book is how to look at the world around you as you move through it. If you had been paying attention last winter you would have notice that the parking lots in the malls we 30-40 more empty than the year before. This was 3 months before any analyst told you this. This information alone had you been able to undersand it probably would have saved you a big pile of money in 2008. Again you don't need to understand why the malls were empty, only that they were.
I have been doing this since Lynch's book first came out. It is not easy at first but you get better at it over time. I also moved money slowly into this strategy. Lynch's book also sounds to good to be true when you read it. With all the books I have read I can say it is one that has rewarded me the most andI have read far too many because most of them (guess what) do not deliver.
Posted by:
Ed S |
October 19, 2008 at 02:42 AM
I did a little experiment. The stock market, measured by Dow Jones index, reached its highest point in the first half of the 20th century in 1929. What followed can best be described as the biggest bear market ever recorded. Investors had to wait 25 years before the Dow Jones again reached the record level from 1929. Some casual observer will now say that investors waisted a quarter of the century waiting to break even. That seems logical, doesn't it?
On December 31st 1928, Mr. Unlucky walked into a broker's office on Wall Street with his yearly savings of $100. He wanted to invest in the stock market. On that day, his $100 bought him 0.33 shares of Dow Jones index at $300. His plan was to invest $100 at the end of the every year, and hope for the best. Over the next four years he experienced unimaginable anxiety as his portfolio sunk further and further into the abyss of the Great Depression. He decided he would continue to contribute $100 every year until the Dow Jones reached the level at which he started his investing venture. Over the years, Mr. Unlucky reinvested his dividends back into the Dow Jones.
In 1954, the Dow Jones index finally reached the 1929 level. At the end of that year, Mr. Unlucky decided to pull out of the market. He did not want to go through this kind of roller coaster ever again. Ha had had enough of it. Over the last 26 years, he invested $2600 of his savings in the main index. He wanted his money back...
How do you think his portfolio performed between 1929 and 1954? This is the longest recorded period on the stock market where the main index stayed unchanged. In other words, this was the worst period to invest in the stock market. How did our Mr. Unlucky do during the worst period of the US stock market?
Well, his original portfolio of $2,600 grew to $16,354. The total return on invested capital turned out to be +529%! Is +7.33% per year, during the worst 25 years on the stock market, a bad return? Think about it...
Posted by:
Penguin |
October 19, 2008 at 10:39 AM
The essential point is that N-year returns are very much dependent on your entry point (as implied in some of the other comments).
Posted by:
MW |
October 19, 2008 at 11:42 AM




Dave, a very interesting post.
John Hussman regularly updates similar information, with a 'channel' of multi-year expected returns.
His weekly comment Monday indicated that this is the first time he has seen attractive valuations, for long-term growth, in several years.
His weekly update is at www.hussmanfunds.com
In any event, we're no more than 900 points from a bottom at this point...